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29 December 2006 @ 08:04 pm
So...  
Patriotism.

Good?

Bad?



Why?
 
 
Current Mood: curiouscurious
Current Music: "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead" from Wizard of Oz
 
 
 
thudpucker: Farscape coffee - by Erniemaythudpucker on December 30th, 2006 04:14 am (UTC)


I'm not certain if "Die, you scum sucking son of a bitch" is what you're looking for, but it's what I feel.

I don't know about you, but I can certainly sleep, tonight.

So can a whole shitload of Kurds. Finally.



Fritters: Ed Peering by Frittersfritters on December 30th, 2006 04:16 am (UTC)
That's not what I was asking, actually. I had the idea of posting this before I even heard the news. Did you wanna re-answer?
ricktboy on December 30th, 2006 06:48 am (UTC)
did I miss something?
(no subject) - fritters on December 30th, 2006 07:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ricktboy on December 30th, 2006 08:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fritters on December 30th, 2006 11:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - thudpucker on December 31st, 2006 03:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
Yep... - lonewulf on December 30th, 2006 08:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Yep... - thudpucker on December 31st, 2006 03:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - postrophe on December 30th, 2006 09:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - thudpucker on December 31st, 2006 03:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Egregiously Mislabeled Taxidriverbrendo on December 30th, 2006 05:26 am (UTC)
Great, as long as it's not used for the wrong ends.

Fritters: Ed Peering by Frittersfritters on December 30th, 2006 05:43 am (UTC)
Care to elaborate?
(no subject) - brendo on December 30th, 2006 06:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fritters on December 30th, 2006 07:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
Phoenix Anew: see no evil..phoenix_anew on December 30th, 2006 06:39 am (UTC)
I figure there is nothing wrong with having pride in your country as long as it doesn't include putting down everyone who isn't in your country.

I believe that living in America is currently the best thing for me. However I say "rock rock on" to those who live in Canada, England, or China, as long as they are happy there.

It's sort of like having pride in your race, in that it often skirts the line of elitism and therefore also racism. It's possible to have one without the other, but many people often assume they are one and the same.
Fritters: Ed Peering by Frittersfritters on December 30th, 2006 07:23 am (UTC)
Good answer.

Good icon!
Lonewulflonewulf on December 30th, 2006 06:45 am (UTC)
I believe that...
Patriotism is a good thing, while being a zealot is not. Patriotism to me is being proud of your country's heritage and ideals... or more generally, what it stands for. If you're patriotic about your country, and there's enough other people who share the same viewpoint/emotion, then there's nothing that can't be accomplished. Two cases in point. First, when we were in the space race to the Moon, if the country as a whole didn't have a patriotic environment, I fully believe that we wouldn't have made it to the moon, let alone be the first ones there ( and I'm not going to get into the debate of whether we actually went or not ). The second case doesn't even deal with our country, but with Japan. After the war, they were pretty well devastated, both mentally, emotionally, and economically. But with their patriotic, can do attitude, they've become one of the leaders in just about all areas of technological innovation, are becoming the leader in the automotive world, are one of the main exporters of steel (they import the raw materials, since they don't have any real natural resources to work with), and the list goes on and on. None of that would have been possible without being patriotic. My personal belief is that the spirit of patriotism is just a group of people having the same vision of the future and are willing to work towards that goal without wavering from it no matter the opposition. To draw a parallel, back when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, because of our patriotic spirit, we threw ourselves to the task of defeating the Axis of Evil and almost 4 years later dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Because of our patriotic spirit, we never once wavered from that goal of defeating the enemy.
In comparison, when the twin towers were destroyed, I made a prediction that day that within 4 years, the USA in general would forget the anger we had towards the enemy that committed the act and we'd want to crawl back into our cocoon of self importance and the "me" attitude that has become so commonplace today. The proof is how we want our troops to pull out of Iraq and stop looking for Osama bin Laden. We don't have very many patriots today, including some people in the military. It shocked me when I recently read a news article relating how a soldier sued the gov't for lawyers fees that he used to defend himself when he refused to be deployed to Iraq. First, he disobeyed a direct order. In times of war, he could legally be shot for that. The fact that not only is he a free man right now, but he won his case shows what a sad state of affairs this country is in. I think that if we don't somehow revive our patriotic spirit somehow and set a national goal for our country, it's only a matter of time before we collapse and some new country takes our place. It's happened before in history (Rome is the only one I can come up with off the top of my head, but I know I can find the references if I get to my personal library). So in a word, it's a good thing.... ;) (I'm a biased Republican, and I approved this message...Heh)
Fritters: Ed Thinking by Frittersfritters on December 30th, 2006 07:26 am (UTC)
Re: I believe that...
Wow, that was incredibly well put. I often try hard not to compare the U.S. with Rome but have trouble avoiding the comparison.

So how do we get people to realize more patriotism would be good? Would a democrat president help, since the libs, who I've seen be less patriotic, would be more likely to feel better about the country? Or, in your republican opinion, would that do more harm than good?
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 30th, 2006 08:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 31st, 2006 04:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 05:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 07:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 08:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 10:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 30th, 2006 08:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lydzi on December 30th, 2006 02:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 30th, 2006 05:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lydzi on December 30th, 2006 05:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 09:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 31st, 2006 04:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 30th, 2006 05:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lydzi on December 30th, 2006 06:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 31st, 2006 04:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 30th, 2006 09:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - thudpucker on December 31st, 2006 03:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 07:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 08:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 09:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lydzi on December 31st, 2006 12:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 05:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 07:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 08:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 10:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - phoenix_anew on December 30th, 2006 04:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lydzi on December 30th, 2006 06:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - lonewulf on December 31st, 2006 04:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - phoenix_anew on December 31st, 2006 01:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 05:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I believe that... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
♔ Lydzi ♔ Au service du Roi Rickon.: Team Servilialydzi on December 30th, 2006 02:52 pm (UTC)
Hum Patriotism is a big word for nothing very important. I'm going to be coherent in english but that's going to be hard so sorry in advance ^^.

I know the importance of being in a group for most of us. So that includes religions groups, earth groups (countries, provinces etc...) or even arts groups. It's always about being recognized as an identity. It's more a "human" problem in a great scale. People need to be proud of something, to believe that they are in a group whatever big is the group. So patriotism is that I supose. There's nothing to be proud of. There's nothing to fight for. You are born somewhere, you could have in another place. And when you die, patriotism is a ridiculous notion.

So it may sound very glorious and everything but in the end, patriotism, as far as I'm concerned, is an illusion. You can fight for an Idea (wich is a right thing to do really) but the land is not yours, never will be. It's there, and it's for everyone.
Lonewulflonewulf on December 30th, 2006 05:10 pm (UTC)
But...
by the same token, taking your description of what patriotism is, most civilizations would never have existed. The roman empire was as powerful and as advanced as it was precisely because of it's national spirit. The british empire was the same way... "God save the queen" springs to mind. It was only after people stopped being so patriotic that their power as an empire started to wane. The USA is currently going through such a decline for the very same reason. Because of the Vietnam conflict, Americans became divided, and started loosing such patriotic feelings, and this country has slowly started declining in dominance in all areas of influence after only 2-3 generations.
(Deleted comment)
Re: But... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
♔ Lydzi ♔ Au service du Roi Rickon.: Arthur et Morganelydzi on December 30th, 2006 06:21 pm (UTC)
Re: But...
Oh we learn that power was circular. Europe -> America -> Asia etc... So it's turn to Asia now so it's normal :). Sharing is not bad.

What you said about civilizations, I guess you are right but it's yin and yang. For a war you will have someone who'll be richer and more powerful. We had two wars in Europe and that is what made Europe "decline" as you say ^^. And into these two wars a lot of patriotism (in a very wrong way) was in process.

I guess, we can make a difference between words. Let's say that Imperialism (wich is a kind of patriotism) is not a good thing and Patriotism is all right (nothing wrong with loving his own country and his History).
Re: But... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 12:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: But... - lydzi on December 31st, 2006 12:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: But... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 07:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: But... - fritters on December 31st, 2006 09:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: But... - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 10:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
Fritters: TT Raven Ehhhrrr by ellonwyefritters on December 31st, 2006 12:07 am (UTC)
Don't you believe being totally unpatriotic is minimizing, or thumbing your nose, at all the sacrifices people have made in the name of your country? Every country has had people who died to protect the rest of the country and to preserve the ideals of that country. Don't you feel if you say patriotism is unimportant that you say that all ideas died for ever are unimportant?
♔ Lydzi ♔ Au service du Roi Rickon.: Team Servilialydzi on December 31st, 2006 12:33 am (UTC)
So basically it's my country = my Ideal?

You fight for an idea and for convictions. Not for a banner.Countries are also made by governments and governments change.

Also, patriotism is associated with nationalism. " We know the truth , we've got the good ideals so we should go everywhere and make them see that." That's not possible. That's already imperialism. Everyone has a different history, a different way of seeing things.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly :/. To quote Leon Tolstoi, "Patriotism is slavery.". It's a pompous word too much used. From something beautiful wich is the love of the people who share with you a language, a history and a culture you make something...a concept who allows you to conflict, to think that you can prevail.
(no subject) - fritters on December 31st, 2006 05:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - zenin4711 on December 31st, 2006 07:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fritters on December 31st, 2006 09:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brendo on December 31st, 2006 05:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)